Karim Erja & Kees Vos - “LET’S CREATE THE SUPERSTARS OF THE FUTURE”

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Reshaping the world of sports and entertainment...

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sometimes means that you have to join forces.

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That is exactly what SeiSei Management and SEG are going to do.

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Here I am with both founders.

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From SeiSei Management: Karim Erja...

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and SEG founder Kees Vos.

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Kees, Keys...

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-Kees, Keesie, whatever.

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Keesie Vos. It is too soon to congratulate you guys? Or is it...

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Certainly not.

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-No.

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Done deal?

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-Yes.

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Best deal of the year?

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At least one of the best deals of the year, yes.

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Because, for the listeners...

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They are now familiar with SEG...

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if they've been listening to this podcast...

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but I'm not sure if they're familiar with SeiSei Management.

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Karim, can you tell us a bit more about the company?

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Yes. The company focuses on building brands around talent.

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What we've been doing, is use the core talent of the people...

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to get off their core talent.

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Sounds kind of cryptic.

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What we mean by that is that if you strive to become the best in your profession...

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what happens if you get injured or what happens if your career ends?

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It is always good to be ready, to have a second career, or even a third one...

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and maximise your opportunities.

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There are a lot of companies that...

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'Building brands' has become a bit of a term...

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that a lot of companies use.

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-Yep.

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You have the knowledge and you have also the proven record with your clients.

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Can you name one of them that really stands out?

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Yes, obviously Rico Verhoeven.

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-Yes.

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World champion kickboxing.

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I've been working with him since 2014.

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He was the champion just before we met.

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He thought, when he arrived at the airport, that all the press would be there...

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all the sponsorship would come in, but the opposite was the fact.

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We started creating a strategy, a long-term strategy.

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Today it is very fruitful.

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Yes, because now he is also a Hollywood blockbuster actor.

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Yes, entrepreneur, equity, brand deals, you name it.

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A bit like Kees.

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I am not a Hollywood actor.

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-You could be.

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No, no way.

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What was... Why was this the right time for you guys to collaborate?

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I think the whole idea of creating something lasting...

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and creating something meaningful for our clients and ourselves...

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is something that we have longed for for a long time.

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When I met Karim, I really had the feeling that he could be the right guy...

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for us to further build that.

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And as you said, he has a proven track record.

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Here's a very nice guy. A very intelligent guy.

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And I think he fits, DNA wise...

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and he fits also with, let's say, the goals we have and the dreams we have.

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DNA wise? What would you say is the DNA that he fits in perfectly?

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He is down-to-earth.

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He has a good sense of humour.

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He is intelligent.

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And he... He just... He is a family guy.

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You know, he just fits the way we think about life...

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and the way we handle things.

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So, it is a good match.

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We have been dating for quite a long time, actually.

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We get the dating analogy again.

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-That's how it is.

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You have to build a relationship. And it's...

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He almost friendzoned me. So...

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I'm familiar with that feeling.

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-Yeah? Cool.

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But if you... It is actually quite funny...

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because this year we've talked a lot about SEG being 25 years now.

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Yes, correct.

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You say you have been working with Rico since 2014...

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but actually you've been in the business for 25 years as well.

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It all started 25 years ago for you too.

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-Yes, yes.

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So, this company, SeiSei, started in 2007.

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What is SeiSei, by the way?

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-That's a funny story.

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If you sign up for the Chamber of Commerce, you have to come up with a name.

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And it was actually...

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Yes, my second company.

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I have to be creative.

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What's the core value I value the most?

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It was being creative.

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So, I googled.

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There was no ChatGPT. Not at all.

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I like the Asian style of doing business, their culture, you know.

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Doing all as a community, symbiotic relationships, et cetera.

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What is creative in Japanese?

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And I think it was the third result.

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It showed up: SeiSei.

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Hey man, that is short and fits like a glove.

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And then, years later, I was in Tokyo...

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and somebody asked me the same question, but that person was actually Japanese.

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OK, but it's not like the perfect translation.

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It did not mean dogshit whatever, but still, you know...

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It has to do with being creative, so...

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Something creative.

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-Yes, so my purpose was...

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Actually, it is a really creative form of thinking.

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It is the third common creative phrase of Japan: SeiSei.

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OK, yes. Thanks for saving me, man.

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But OK, then you started, Chamber of Commerce, and you got SeiSei Management.

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For you, the core was football, when you started Sports Entertainment Group.

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It was always the idea to have multiple sports. We started with football...

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You started with football.

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-And then, we did cycling and e-sports...

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and other things. Individual athletes as well.

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So, it's been multiple sports.

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Yes, but you with your football background...

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Together with Alex it was a no-brainer...

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that you would start with football.

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-Well, football is one of our passions.

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In general, I am a sports fan and I like multiple sports.

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Also to follow and to watch.

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Oh, that changed the way of thinking in the industry.

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To me, actually, it also started with football.

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I wasn't a very gifted footballer, but I gave it a try at PSV Eindhoven...

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as a Rotterdam guy.

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And at an internship, I tore my ACL.

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But actually, the team was full of great players.

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Boudewijn Zenden and all of those guys.

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So, I did not make it, you know.

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He could have made it, but...

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So, that also you have in common.

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-No, I was not that good.

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I know, but it started there.

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I was a young kid and I had the same dream.

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But I let it go. I started studying and then, my first client was a dancer.

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And dancers, you know... Most of them are the backups for an artist.

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Hey, what if this guy...

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He has all the assets...

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good looks, good movement, and we started building that brand. And...

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Eventually... It is Timor Steffens, by the way.

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He evolved into working with Michael Jackson.

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And that whole strategy was the blueprint of...

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a blueprint that I deployed to other clients as well.

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Artists, footballers as well.

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So, a very diverse roster...

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of athletes and artists.

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That is what I started with.

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And now those forces will be a joint force.

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What is the biggest challenge for you guys ahead?

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There is always challenges ahead.

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-I know.

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Even if you are not going to work together you have challenges, you know.

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But for us it is to fulfil our dreams.

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So, we would like to create something extra...

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for our clients, for ourselves.

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So... And Karim is going to focus on creating IP.

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Creating IP for... Together with our clients, together with our partners.

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So... And that sounds like a very general term...

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but it can also be anything.

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It can be that we will create IP in our artists department.

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You know, we can create IP in our football department, cycling department...

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Can you name a few examples for the listener who thinks: OK, I am new to this world.

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What is an IP on football?

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-We have listeners?

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That is good.

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-The guys of the technique.

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We have listeners. That is nice to hear.

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OK, we can create a new band.

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Singer, DJ, whatever, and put it out in the market with a very good plan.

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And not just for the sake of it, but to add something. To create value.

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We can come up with a new bike which is, maybe, revolutionary.

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Because we have so much knowledge of the cycling market, cycling industry.

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We have the network. So, let's say, the possibilities are endless.

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You have to start somewhere. The biggest challenge is to pick the right battle, I would say.

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And to focus on two, three, five projects...

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because you cannot do it all at once.

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But there is plenty of opportunities.

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-Have you had...

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You just said that a talent thrives on their core talent...

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and what you see often is that after their career, they are searching for their purpose.

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Have you had experiences, with a football player for example...

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that wanted to do a crossover, maybe in music, in football...

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or rather in film or entrepreneurship?

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I think that is the core reason of this collaboration, right?

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Not only.

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From a certain point of view, it is all about the talent.

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As a company, you should not only rely on what your talent does...

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but also their communities around them.

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Together with your talent, you can create something that is feasible for their fans...

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or their community around them.

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a football player should focus on the match...

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and a musician should focus on his music.

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-That is outdated. Yes, that's outdated.

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I think it is all about culture.

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And what I mean by culture is...

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If I take Rico, for instance. He's been a long-time undisputed world champion.

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When he started being involved in movies, people said: Focus on your sport.

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But he kept on winning titles. So, he debunked that prejudice, you know, easily.

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But the thing is that if you think of creating a brand...

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it is more than just being a pretty girl or pretty guy.

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It is all your assets. You have to map them out and see whether you are a good talker...

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or maybe you may become a stand-up comedian.

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Or maybe you have a totally different talent and become a golf player. I don't know.

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It doesn't... I don't want to box a person into a certain vertical.

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I look at it from a broader perspective.

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And that is for SEG a very fruitful future, I think.

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Where is the line of thinking outside the box?

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So, have you ever had that maybe a client told you:

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I want to get interested in that. And that you say...

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You have to be realistic, obviously.

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-Exactly.

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But where is the difference between realistic and chasing a dream?

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That's between the dream and the reality.

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But of course, you can have dreams.

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And it is also not to say that every talent can become something else all of a sudden.

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That is also not the case.

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And it is also perfectly fine...

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if you end your career and you don't do anything if you do not want to.

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That is fine.

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As long as you have a purpose in life.

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And not every ex-football player becomes a coach...

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and not every ex-football player works in the football industry.

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The only thing is that we would like to challenge our clients...

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to make sure that they think about what is next.

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And we would like to speak to them about how to achieve that then...

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if they have some kind of dream or a purpose.

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And we won't be able to all of a sudden create plans for all of our clients.

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That is also not what we are aspiring.

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We also need to think about life beyond that talent.

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So, to create...

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IP, intellectual property...

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It can also be a format for a TV programme...

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or for a documentary series, or it can be...

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It can be very broad. And Karim is creative...

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but he also always has a foot in real life.

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So, it's not only dreaming what he does.

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He also makes those things reality.

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And I am very happy that we are joining forces.

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He is joining us and has a position in our company now...

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which enables him to play that game on a higher level...

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and in multiple, let's say, worlds at a time.

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Because we are in football, and we are in cycling, and we are in e-sports...

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and we are in music.

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And combining his network with our network gives us a massive opportunity, I would say.

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So, what are... Letting go of your company sounds a bit harsh.

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But what is the biggest challenge of, I'll still say, letting go of SeiSei Management?

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I think the hardest part for me will be that I always envisioned...

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a boutique company. And boutique means small, very close to your clients.

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Personal?

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-Yes, personal. And I needed that.

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Because it enabled me to master the craft...

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of being involved in events, TV, sports, music...

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All of those angles. And that kind of gave me the creativity...

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to create more opportunities for whatever is needed.

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And letting go of that boutique behaviour...

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Not small thinking, that's something else.

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But boutique is with a...

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Yes, let's say we had... Including our footballers, I think we had 20, 30 clients. Tops.

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Managed by how many people?

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-Six to eight people.

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And now you are talking about 800 clients.

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And getting back to your earlier question on what will be the hardest...

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it's to identify the opportunities of all of those 800 clients.

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It is not that I'm going to do 800 interviews.

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But which data points can we identify...

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to see where we can create more value for everybody?

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Maybe we should use tech or whatever data is available...

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or even create a new model to identify it.

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That is a challenge.

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A really nice and cool challenge.

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So, making that move, is the most challenging part.

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I also like the part that... If I think about it, I've been working with footballers...

00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:52.480
for years as well. And there are a few players who always had like a side hobby.

00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:56.519
OK, but I'm a football player.

00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.399
So, I had guys who would play guitar.

00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.480
There was a guitar at their home and they would play actually quite nice.

00:16:02.615 --> 00:16:05.495
They did not dare to sing, but if they started, it sounded quite all right.

00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:10.279
But they were too focused on football, so they let it go.

00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:13.879
To create the most talent that you have...

00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.440
you are also wasting a lot of talent in life.

00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:20.320
Yes, but I think that example...

00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:20.320
To zoom in on that example...

00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:23.440
I do not know which player you're talking about, but that's kind of irrelevant...

00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:29.519
but the nice thing about this example is that...

00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:29.519
Let's say, in the field you have a player...

00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:32.600
I'm sticking to football for this example.

00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:38.639
Everybody hates this guy, because he's harsh and he's not the crowd's favourite guy.

00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:42.480
But all of a sudden it turns out that he's a perfect guitar player...

00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:46.559
or he can paint like Rembrandt, you know.

00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:50.519
It gives a totally different perception of who he is as a person.

00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.480
And I think that is where the good stuff is.

00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.840
And that is also what people like, because you always see it... For example, recently...

00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:03.559
Gerald Alders, our player who went to FC Twente on loan...

00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:08.559
he started to play the piano. All of a sudden, he went viral by playing the piano.

00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:11.039
I'm not saying that's not special, because it is really special...

00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.960
He broke the mould.

00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.960
People perceived him only as a player.

00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.799
And that's where I think, people are wrong.

00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:24.400
And it's up to us to create a person that is more than just that one sole vertical.

00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:29.240
But sometimes the player needs that focus as well. So, there is no good or bad.

00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:31.799
No, no.

00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:31.799
-It's not that everybody all of a sudden...

00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:35.640
has to have a hobby and turn that into something...

00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:45.519
'Can you play the guitar, man?'-'You cannot play? Terrible.''You're not a fit for SEG.' No.

00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:45.519
-No, you are right.

00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:50.079
So, whatever you need for your own career.

00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:50.079
Your career is your focus.

00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:54.720
If Rico Verhoeven needed that focus to perform...

00:17:54.839 --> 00:18:00.880
then he would not have this Hollywood career, but he apparently needed to chase that dream...

00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:07.000
to give him more energy to perform on the pitch, to put it that way.

00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:10.559
So, everybody's different.

00:18:10.709 --> 00:18:16.588
And we need to find the right opportunities.

00:18:10.709 --> 00:18:16.588
-You are not going to push it onto clients?

00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:20.759
No, of course not. I think that Karim has proven over the years...

00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:26.599
that he can find that talent and that certain angle.

00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:31.359
But as I said, there is so many opportunities lying ahead of us.

00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.599
OK, which one do we pick, which one do we do first?

00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:39.680
We cannot do it all at the same time.

00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:39.680
But it's... I'm looking forward...

00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.640
to our marriage here.

00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:47.559
But I also think, in terms of what we just said, it is also a sort of ideal world...

00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:52.759
where a striker for Manchester United suddenly plays the O2 Arena.

00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:57.039
But Kees, you have visited a lot of football clubs, you've talked to a lot of technical directors...

00:18:57.169 --> 00:19:01.169
I also think that in the world of football the mindset of what we just spoke about...

00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:04.480
is maybe a bit more conservative than the entertainment world.

00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.599
Yes, 100 percent. The football industry is very conservative.

00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.759
It starts from the top. It starts from FIFA.

00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:19.039
They are trying to be very modern and give out peace prizes all of a sudden.

00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:23.200
So, maybe that will change the whole industry as well.

00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:26.279
Maybe they become very progressive now.

00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:32.200
If you have a football player who is in the starting eleven and is a key player of their club...

00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:37.279
and suddenly he is posting stuff, he's making video clips...

00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:41.680
We've seen it in the past with some footballers.

00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:46.680
Maybe you'll get a call from a technical director: Hey, your player is doing all these kinds of side jobs.

00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.880
Yes, they are afraid of not being focused.

00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.480
So, what is an answer to that then, based on...

00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.480
-Educate them.

00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:58.839
You know, in the end... They pay a lot of money for the player to focus...

00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.759
and create more value for the team and the club.

00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:06.519
So, first and foremost, that is their main purpose. But sometimes...

00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:11.160
if you attract more people to the stadium because the player is known outside of the field...

00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.279
it also brings more commercial value.

00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.279
So, it's a very thin line.

00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.400
You have to educate people and show them that it goes hand-in-hand.

00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.480
And the grass is always greener, you know.

00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:24.640
In Europe, people aspire to be in the US.

00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:30.200
And people from the US drive European cars and want to be in Paris and Italy.

00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:33.920
That is their culture. And the same goes for athletes and artists.

00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:38.480
Rappers want to become footballers, and footballers want to become rappers.

00:20:38.599 --> 00:20:41.920
So, why should you have to choose?

00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:46.880
You can make that an opportunity, but never forget your core value.

00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:49.880
It is interesting that you just said there is a thin line.

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:55.279
Because it always... It is still...

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:55.279
During these years, it is still a thin line.

00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.200
Have you ever made a mistake of maybe chasing the wrong talent?

00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:02.440
We wanted to talk about fun stuff, you know.

00:20:59.319 --> 00:21:02.440
Come on.

00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:06.200
We don't lie. Everybody makes mistakes in life, Joost.

00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.599
I think it's interesting, because you learn from mistakes. Maybe there is a bit to learn there.

00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:16.799
Yes, we've learned. Our listeners want to learn, but they also want to have fun stories.

00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:22.160
I start with the bad news, then come with the good news and everybody leaves the building happy.

00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:24.640
But I understand where you're going.

00:21:24.761 --> 00:21:29.801
So, what is the most beautiful, amazing thing that happened to you, Kees?

00:21:29.912 --> 00:21:33.711
You give him the good stuff.

00:21:29.912 --> 00:21:33.711
Good start, man.

00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.680
Most beautiful thing?

00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:36.680
-No, but is there...

00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:38.720
My family.

00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:44.680
Karim has a really concrete example of Rico, going to the US, to Hollywood...

00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:47.279
becoming a major movie star, filming with Jason Statham...

00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:51.559
and also maintaining his titles in the world of fighting.

00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:54.440
And actually, I asked you the question, but we did not get the answer.

00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:57.960
Have you got a crossover that's been really successful?

00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.319
Not that I know of, no.

00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:04.440
No.

00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:07.359
Have you made many mistakes?

00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:10.640
But that was why...

00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:10.640
-But listen.

00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:15.240
My role is also a bit different in the company right now. So, it's...

00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:21.039
I am not into very much personal management, so to say.

00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:25.119
So, it is more trying to help my colleagues...

00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:31.759
and trying to help my staff here and, let's say, to create value.

00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.720
So, that's more my role.

00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.720
I'm not into personal management.

00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:40.839
Maybe Kevin Strootman, who retired recently...

00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:42.920
Well, recently...

00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:47.480
And I think you also have a lot of conversations about entrepreneurship.

00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:53.079
Listen, you speak to your clients and you talk about what will be next...

00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:57.839
and how can you have purpose in life, and do something you like?

00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:03.759
You are from football, so you need to have a role in football.

00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:06.240
You have to be a coach.

00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:11.880
For example, for Robin van Persie it turned out to be great.

00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:18.000
You know? I thought he could be a very good coach or manager. And...

00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.720
Which he has proven.

00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.720
-Now he is proving that.

00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:24.720
That is a nice trajectory, it is nice to be part of that.

00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:28.759
But again, it is not for everyone. So, for Kevin...

00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:33.839
we have had all kinds of different conversations about what would be next.

00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:40.319
Enjoy your retirement.

00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:40.319
Enjoy it because you earned it.

00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:45.720
It is quite a rollercoaster from when you are 15, 16 years old and your career sort of starts...

00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:49.880
and then, until you're 35, it is quite...

00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:57.559
There are quite some emotions involved, and quite some setbacks and highs and lows in the end.

00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:02.039
So, it is good to reflect and enjoy a little bit of free time.

00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:06.599
OK, what is my next move?

00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:16.682
With him I'm talking a lot about 'What could you do?' Not 'What should you do?' What could you do?

00:24:11.522 --> 00:24:16.682
Because in the end, it is his decision, right?

00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.160
Sports Entertainment Group.

00:24:20.294 --> 00:24:22.854
So, there is sports and entertainment.

00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:28.480
And you have also been a fond fan of the Hollywood world.

00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:33.279
You know a lot about film, you know a lot about music.

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.400
The US is always looking at Europe, and Europe is always looking at the US.

00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.759
Is this, the fruitful collaboration we just talked about...

00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:46.720
Is it also a step towards the US?

00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:49.279
Because you have a lot of experience over there.

00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:54.799
Yes, so personally I do not perceive the US as the promised land.

00:24:54.920 --> 00:25:00.720
No, it is, I think, more global because there are so many people all over the world.

00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:05.240
Sports is connecting people.

00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:05.240
It is a cliché, but it is what it is.

00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:12.160
I think the smart thing for us to do, is to look at the world as our stage.

00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:15.640
You know? And I know in certain countries...

00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.240
football is not on the level of the Premier League or whatever...

00:25:19.359 --> 00:25:25.480
but still you have a lot of fans. If you do not look at just making the deal with a footballer...

00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.400
but you can also create value for the fans, how beautiful is that?

00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:36.079
Maybe we can... Japan, you know? You see a lot of Japanese players over in Europe.

00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.640
Maybe we can create some creative stuff over there...

00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:45.400
to get young kids interested in football at an early age already.

00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:49.279
And hopefully, we create the superstars of the future.

00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:51.599
But from a creative perspective...

00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:57.680
you should not only look at a specific country, if you ask me, but more at the global stage.

00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:01.200
We are a Dutch company, SEG...

00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:07.480
and it sounds cocky but if you look at what John de Mol did with The Voice of Holland in the US...

00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:11.359
In the early days you had the big painters, Rembrandt and Van Gogh, you know.

00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.839
You have Philips, you have all big Dutch companies...

00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:19.720
and I think it is nice if SEG can, you know...

00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.640
Contribute to...

00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.640
-Dutch heritage.

00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:26.160
To Dutch heritage. You have to think big.

00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:26.160
-Rembrandt, The Voice, and SEG.

00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:31.279
Yes. You know, it sounds cocky, but what I mean is: You have to strive for the biggest...

00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:36.000
and I think that is what we are striving for.

00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:36.000
That kind of sparked me in our conversations.

00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:40.440
Yes, you can take the good things from the US, from other parts of the world.

00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:45.000
What are the good things?

00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:45.000
Because you've always been interested...

00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.559
If you look at the management side of things, or agents' side of things...

00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.440
they are way ahead of how it's organised in Europe.

00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:54.720
For example?

00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:00.160
The consolidation happened there 30, 40 years earlier than here.

00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:05.920
Here, it's a cottage industry. There are many football agents and football agencies.

00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:10.920
If you look how power is divided, for example in Hollywood...

00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:16.720
It's... You can count the really big agencies on one hand.

00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:20.119
So, that's different.

00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:24.200
People talk more about the Super Bowl halftime show than the match itself.

00:27:24.324 --> 00:27:28.644
Yes, that's true. And now you see also that development coming into Europe.

00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:36.200
You see that sometimes the transfer window is even more entertaining than the game itself.

00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:40.240
You know. Where are people going to?

00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:40.240
And we play a role in that.

00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:45.559
We are creating the transfer window together with other agencies and players.

00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:51.559
So, we are one of the actors on that front.

00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:56.039
So it's... You have to be aware of it.

00:27:56.160 --> 00:27:59.039
And you have to take that also to the next phase.

00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:03.960
So, we... I think we are like-minded.

00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:09.599
We want to take the good things from all over the world, but we are Dutch. And we are European.

00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:14.759
We believe in the way we do things.

00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:19.920
So yeah, I think there are nice things to come.

00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:24.640
So, maybe in a year's time we can have this conversation again and then we can talk about...

00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:29.720
what we have achieved over the...

00:28:24.759 --> 00:28:29.720
-Some courtside tickets in LA.

00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:33.039
Courtside tickets? Why is that?

00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:34.920
Is that...

00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:34.920
-Is that your goal?

00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:39.200
No, but while you were talking...

00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:39.200
-I can fix it tomorrow, man.

00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:44.240
25 years ago, that integration already started...

00:28:44.359 --> 00:28:49.880
that's why I'm saying courtside tickets, they put celebrities on the courtside.

00:28:49.997 --> 00:28:54.797
I always think about Ari Gold, based on Ari Emanuel, for example...

00:28:54.920 --> 00:29:00.119
who has been one of the biggest stars for one of the most successful TV shows, Entourage.

00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:04.440
He was based, if you take all the lunatic sides away...

00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:09.400
He was already working like that back then, 25 years ago.

00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.440
Yes. Definitely.

00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:16.319
So again, I think the agency, management world in the US...

00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:21.480
is ahead of the European way of doing things.

00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:23.599
We can learn from that.

00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:25.720
Is it a blueprint?

00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:25.720
-No, not really.

00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:30.799
We have to pick the right... We have to cherry pick. We can do that.

00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.640
And we have our own path, we have our own vision.

00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:40.240
And I think that by joining forces, we can be tremendously successful.

00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:45.279
And I'm very happy that Karim is joining us.

00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:50.359
And is bringing his expertise...

00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.839
and clients with him. So, I really think...

00:29:53.960 --> 00:30:00.680
that we are making the next wave, actually, in this industry.

00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.759
And we are able to do that together.

00:30:03.877 --> 00:30:09.718
Let's have this podcast in one year and look back at this conversation.

00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:15.839
Let's make it a bit juicier.

00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:15.839
Next year, where are we?

00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:19.599
Juicier?

00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:19.599
-I wanted fun. I was asking for fun.

00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:22.400
Juicy, juicy, juicy. OK.

00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:29.079
No, I think next year we will have launched a couple of creative formats.

00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.960
And whether they are immediately going through the roof...

00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:37.920
or are a very interesting, potential new way of thinking, I don't know.

00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:44.240
But we are definitely going to come up with some creative new things.

00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:50.440
Yes, I agree. There will be some nice things happening in the coming year.

00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:54.680
And whether it will be a massive success immediately...

00:30:54.811 --> 00:31:01.612
and be rolled out like The Voice of Holland or a Rembrandt painting, I don't know yet.

00:31:02.718 --> 00:31:05.597
That's for us to see.

00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:11.400
I'd say in every division we should have at least one tangible format...

00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:16.480
starting or already far in the process.

00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:16.480
I think that is a nice goal.

00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:22.359
Whether it's cycling, football, women's football, e-sports, performance...

00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.240
That is a nice dot on the horizon.

00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.240
Let's stick to that.

00:31:25.358 --> 00:31:28.558
Next year, 9 December 2026.

00:31:25.358 --> 00:31:28.558
-You'll call me out on that.

00:31:28.733 --> 00:31:31.134
You haven't asked how we met, right?

00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:34.960
No, I just heard you went dating, so I don't know...

00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:38.359
But what's the story behind your...

00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:43.240
I want to thank Arno Philips.

00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:43.240
Because he made this all happen.

00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:48.240
He knows Karim very well, he knows me very well.

00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:48.240
-Arno Philips, the physio...

00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:51.799
Not physio, man.

00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:51.799
-Wait. The Director of SEG Performance.

00:31:51.917 --> 00:31:56.678
Exactly, yes. He started as the best physio in the world but now he's our Performance Director.

00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:01.279
That is what I wanted to say. The legendary physio who went everywhere in the world.

00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:03.839
You know, that's true.

00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:10.279
To be honest, we have been in talks with several companies that had interest in acquiring us.

00:32:10.400 --> 00:32:12.200
And I told Arno this.

00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:18.119
Arno is also part of Team Rico, because he's the best performance coach there is.

00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:23.480
Do not forget about SEG.

00:32:23.601 --> 00:32:26.441
So, to be honest, and I told Kees this, I had my prejudice.

00:32:26.559 --> 00:32:31.200
You know, everybody talks crap about the bigger agents and you have your prejudice.

00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:34.440
No, talk to the guys yourself.

00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:39.079
And then we had a meeting with Kees Ploegsma...

00:32:39.210 --> 00:32:43.490
Jeroen, Kees... Everybody was sat at the table.

00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:46.880
OK, ask us. Straightforward.

00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:49.960
And let us tell all the bad stories you heard about us.

00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:52.599
Then, we had a very deep conversation...

00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:56.680
Hey, sorry for the prejudice.

00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:56.680
Now I understand.

00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:01.000
And then... That was actually a year ago.

00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:01.000
And then we started talking.

00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:04.599
Why don't we do a project together all at once?

00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:08.039
Yeah, let's have some more conversations.

00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:12.920
And more became 12 or 15 conversations.

00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:12.920
But all in good spirit.

00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:18.319
Sometimes you need, before you marry or even date, you know, see...

00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:21.240
Spend a few nights together.

00:33:18.440 --> 00:33:21.240
-Yes, yes.

00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:24.240
And we did. And we did.

00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.000
It's all a metaphor.

00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:27.000
For the listeners: It's a metaphor.

00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:32.160
But we took our time. And I think what Arno saw... He was already on the floor.

00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:36.039
He knew me and he knows what our company does.

00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.599
And he saw that...

00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.599
-The potential?

00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:40.720
Yes, synergy.

00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:44.359
So, thanks for asking how we met.

00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:48.519
I like to close off with a fun story.

00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:48.519
This was one.

00:33:48.640 --> 00:33:50.880
So, thank you. Good luck.

00:33:51.000 --> 00:33:53.920
Karim, you still have 800 clients to interview.

00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:58.279
So let's round this off.

00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:58.279
-Yeah, man. Hey, Chad.

00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:01.680
And we'll see each other next year.

00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:01.680
-Yes, thank you.